Legislature(1997 - 1998)
05/06/1997 02:30 PM House FIN
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE BILL 141
"An Act relating to permits to carry concealed
handguns; and relating to the possession of firearms."
TUCKERMAN BABCOCK, STAFF, SENATOR LYDA GREEN, commented that
the intent of SB 141 is simple. There is no reason that the
permitted few should be more restricted than the unregulated
many. He suggested treating people and their handguns
equally. All Alaskans, who are not otherwise prohibited by
federal or state law from owning or possessing handguns, can
carry handguns openly in certain places and can carry
concealed without a permit in certain places. An Alaskan
should be able to carry a concealed handgun in those same
places, and should be required to do no more than
fingerprinting, training and background checks.
Mr. Babcock noted that with the exception of the recognition
of out-of-state permits and the lowering of the permit fee,
the Alaska Peace Officers Association supports SB 141. The
Department of Public Safety (DPS) supports most of the bill,
although, opposes certain sections. The Department contends
that without an increase in volume, reducing fees could
result in not collecting enough funds to cover the costs of
the program. The Department remains opposed to recognizing
out-of-state permits and are definitely cautious about
changing the law.
Mr. Babcock summarized that existing law is too restrictive,
confusing and expensive. Under current law, one is
prohibited from walking into a financial institution with a
permitted concealed handgun, but is allowed to take the
handgun out and carry it openly into the bank. He suggested
that existing law too often turns common sense upside down.
Representative J. Davies spoke to his philosophy regarding
the proposed legislation. He believed that concealed
weapons should be prohibited in a bank with only open-carry
allowed. Mr. Babcock commented that the people who apply
for permits to carry concealed guns are not the ones that
commit crimes with those weapons. If a person's intent was
to cause damage in a bank, they would not be concerned with
carrying a permit or not.
Representative Kelly questioned under the proposed bill,
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would a person be allowed to carry a concealed weapon into a
bar. Mr. Babcock stated that would not be allowed.
Representative G. Davis argued against the statement that
people who obtain a permit to carry concealed are all
upstanding citizens. He stressed that there has not been
enough study regarding that statement. Representative Kelly
countered that history from other states does indicate these
positive results.
Representative Mulder questioned the fee structure changes
recommended by the sponsor. Mr. Babcock replied that the
current fee structure is up to $125 dollars for the initial
permit and $60 for renewal after five years. Senator Green
is proposing to reduce that to $99 dollars for the initial
cost and $30 dollars for renewal. The course would cost
between $100 to $150 dollars. If the volume were to
increase, the Department of Public Safety would be able to
meet their target with the amount of money that would be
generated from the $99 dollar fee. The fixed cost to the
Department is roughly $60 dollars.
LAUREE HUGONIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ALASKA NETWORK ON
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT, JUNEAU, voiced her
concern that the Network opposes three sections of the bill;
Section #10, #13 and #16.
She noted that the current list of permit qualifications
excludes persons who have committed felonies and a various
list of misdemeanors including crimes against a person and a
crime involving domestic violence. She stressed that if the
bill passes in it's current form, it would remove that
restriction. The Network strongly opposes that action.
Section #13 addresses when a permit could be suspended and
would be when there has been a crime charged against a
person or a crime involving domestic violence. A person at
that point could have been charged with a crime even though
they had not been convicted. Ms. Hugonin testified that it
would be appropriate to suspend a permit in certain
circumstances. She urged that current statute stand.
Section #16 repeals and reenacts a list of prohibitive
places to carry concealed. A facility that provides
services to domestic violence and sexual assault victims was
not included, even though not listed in the crime section,
she stressed that it is a locked facility. If the person
carries concealed, the option to deny entrance is not
available.
Ms. Hugonin refuted the notion that people in domestic
violence centers and those that work there are "sitting
ducks". She emphasized that these places are homes of
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refuge. Places where skills of dialogue, negotiation,
fairness, truth-telling and sharing are practiced. Because
the Network works to carry out this vision, does not mean
that they ignore the real world. Employees at the shelters
teach victims to learn how to arm themselves with knowledge,
companions and with the belief in the possibility and
willingness to stand for peace.
She requested that weapons not be allowed on the shelters
premise and that request be respected and clearly specified
in law.
Discussion followed regarding Section #13 between
Representative Mulder and Ms. Hugonin. Mr. Babcock noted
that Committee members packet included a memo dated 3/24/97,
from Legal Counsel to Senator Green, stating that it should
be unlawful for any person to possess a fire arm, who is
subject to a court order. The sponsor's position is that
federal law already prohibits those people from possessing
any firearms. Ms. Hugonin replied that there are some
federal provisions which are not as expansive as the
Domestic Violence Protection Act passed last year. That
protective order included in the Alaska Statutes includes
emergency protective orders. Federal law does not cover
those, while defining who is eligible to obtain a protective
order in a more narrow field.
(Tape Change HFC 97-125, Side 2).
Mr. Babcock spoke to the broad federal laws preclusion list
of firearms. He pointed out that AS 11.61.200(a)(8)
prohibits the possession of a fire arm while a person is
committing a trespass in the first or second degree
violation of the domestic violence restraining order and
that AS 11.61.200(a)(9) prohibits the possession of any
firearm concealed or open while the possessor is
communicating with another person in violation of their
domestic restraining order.
JAYNE ANDREEN, DIRECTOR, COUNCIL ON DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND
SEXUAL ASSAULT, ANCHORAGE, expressed concerns that the
Council has on SB 141. She pointed out that the Legislature
and the Administration worked very hard three years ago to
craft a concealed handgun system which contained adequate
safeguards. There have been no problems with that system to
date.
Ms. Andreen spoke to the specific areas which the Council
has addressed concerns with in the proposed legislation:
* Protection for domestic violence and sexual
assault victims needs to be paramount and
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under the eligibility qualifications. The
Council is concerned that the prohibition on
a protective order has been jeopardized under
federal law;
* Under the eligibility list, someone under the
bill would have had to be convicted of two
class A misdemeanors in order to be eligible
for a concealed handgun permit. That would
exclude the mass majority of domestic violent
offenders.
* The prohibition of concealed handguns in
domestic violence sexual assault facilities.
Ms. Andreen pointed out that we need to acknowledge that
some domestic violence and sexual assault victims are very
proficient at use of handguns. The reality is that many of
these victims do not have that level of proficiency.
Additionally, there are many other adults and children in
these facilities. To date, there has been an assurance that
these facilities have emergency procedures. She stressed
that it is very important to use the criminal justice
system, use a safety process to enforce safety for these
victims.
Ms. Andreen requested the Committee to consider banning all
guns from these facilities, both openly carried and
concealed.
ARTHUR SNOWDEN, ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTOR, ALASKA COURT
SYSTEM, advised that the Supreme Court feels strongly that
an amendment be added to the bill which would ban all
firearms from court facilities. Federal law does ban them
from federal court houses. Mr. Snowden stressed the highly
emotionally charged environment that exists in a court room
situation and that the bill needs to be amended to address
these concerns.
Representative Kohring stated that the procedure of those
persons in going through the permitting process should
present minimal problems for the court system. Mr. Snowden
respectfully disagreed. He reiterated that court houses are
highly charged emotional environments.
Representative Martin questioned if courts houses had a
court ruling pertaining to the expressed concern. Mr.
Snowden replied that the court does have a ruling against
concealed weapons. Although, citizens are not charged by
law with knowing or obeying court rule, but they are charged
by law with knowing the statues and laws of the State. He
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reiterated that we need to ban firearms by law from being
carried in court houses.
DEAN GUANELI, CHIEF ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL, CRIMINAL
DIVISION, DEPARTMENT OF LAW, explained that there are
problems with the bill which need to be addressed by the
Finance Committee. Those problems fall into two areas:
* Current law establishes a list of classes of
people who can not get concealed handgun
permits. The legislation would sweep away
that protection.
* Current law also contains a long list of
places where concealed handguns can not be
carried, which the bills disregards.
Mr. Guaneli focused on some of the provisions which are
being repealed by the bill. He agreed with Mr. Snowden's
idea of banning all kinds of protection in court houses, and
the type of ultimate protection that domestic violence
shelters and places that provide services to victims would
really need. He suggested that any amendment dealing with
court houses should also include an additional line taking
into consideration where services are added to victims of
domestic violence and sexual assault.
He suggested that the classes of people who can not get
concealed handguns are important to remain in current law.
Current law states that someone who is suffering from a
mental illness can not get a concealed handgun permit.
Federal law states that if you have been adjudicated or
institutionalized, you can not carry a fire arm. There are
many people walking the streets who are quite paranoid who
are law abiding citizens yet are crazy. Those people under
the proposed legislation could receive a permit.
At this time, the Department of Public Safety will receive
an application from someone who otherwise looks like a
perfect applicant, and then they will receive letters from
the community indicating the marginal ability of these
people to be capable of having a permit responsibly. This
type of protection does not exist in federal law and must
exist in State law.
Mr. Guaneli addressed other specifications such as people
who had been ordered by the court into alcohol
rehabilitation within the last three years. Those people
should not be carrying a concealed handgun. Federal law
does not speak to serious alcoholics; federal law only
addresses someone who is addicted or a user of a controlled
substance.
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Mr. Guaneli noted that if there is going to be a great
expansion of the places where concealed handguns are
displayed under permit, there needs to be an amendment under
the State Criminal Trespass laws to give public buildings
and premises the same rights as private places.
Representative J. Davies requested more clarification under
current trespass laws. Mr. Guaneli responded that current
law stipulates that a sign would be effective to prohibit
trespassing activities. Representative J. Davies asked if
the proposed bill would affect current law with respect to
private property. Mr. Guaneli stated it would not affect
any of the criminal trespass laws.
Representative Kelly MOVED to adopt Amendment #1. [Copy on
file]. Representative Kohring OBJECTED.
Representative Kelly reiterated that the court room was a
charged environment and that concealed handguns should not
be allowed. Mr. Babcock retorted that currently under the
law, carrying openly or concealed in a court house is
prohibitive. A person would be thrown in jail by the court
system for contempt of court. Since it is already written
into law, he urged that addition of the language would be
redundant.
A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION.
IN FAVOR: Grussendorf, Kelly, Mulder, J. Davies,
G. Davis, Foster
OPPOSED: Kohring
Representatives Martin, Moses, Therriault and Hanley were
not present for the vote.
The MOTION PASSED (6-1).
SB 141 was HELD in Committee for further consideration.
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